Web3 games are taking off and Planet Mojo is one of the premiere titles leading the way. On Ep 23 of The Zeitgeist, CEO Mike Levine shares the web3 opportunity for game publishers, how digital ownership empowers gamers, and the future of community gaming.
About Planet Mojo:
Planet Mojo is an ecosystem of interconnected games built by Mystic Moose and set inside a mysterious alien planet with an evolving narrative. Players compete with customized teams of fantastical creatures in a suite of eSports, PvP games. The long-term goal is to create a sustainable and growing catalog of games for the next generation of gamers, empowering players by allowing them to own their in-game assets and have a say in the project’s future direction.
Show Notes:
01:02 - Background and how he started in Web3?
04:34 - Unique challenges in Web3
07:25 - What is planet Mojo?
11:17 - Owning your assets in planet mojo
12:50 - Is Mojo Planet a Play-to-own model?
13:5 - The future of in-game economy in Web3
19:31 - Why are traditional gamers skeptical of NFTs?
23:15 - Would traditional games benefit from adding a Web3 component?
24:54 - The future of Web3 gaming
28:58 - A builder in the Web3 gaming ecosystem he admires?
Full Transcript:
Brian Friel (00:00):
Hey everyone and welcome to the Zeitgeist, the show where we highlight the founders, developers, and designers who are pushing the web 3.0 Space forward. I'm Brian Friel, developer relations at Phantom, and I'm super excited to introduce our guest, Mike Levine. Mike is the CEO of Planet Mojo, one of the leading games on Polygon. Mike, welcome to the show.
Mike Levine (00:28):
Hello. Thanks for having me, Brian. Excited to be here.
Brian Friel (00:32):
I'm excited for you to be here as well. We got a lot of really awesome stuff to talk about. Just the time of recording this, I saw you guys sold out your first mint on Magic Eden. You've got this great ecosystem you guys are building out related the web 3.0 gaming. But before we dive into all that, I want to learn a little bit more about you. You have a very interesting background. You're a veteran of the gaming industry and you spent a lot of time at Lucas Arts Entertainment. Can you walk us through what your background is and why you started working in web 3.0?
Mike Levine (01:02):
Yeah, I started working at Lucas Arts in the early 90s, I'm going to make myself sound as old as I am. But I'm from the east coast in Massachusetts where I am now. But went out to California with dreams of, well, really going to grad school. But I needed a job and amazingly Lucas had one in the paper. Lucasfilm games at the time, and I went in and somehow convinced them to hire me, and just really clicked. I never considered it for a career at all. I'd played video games my whole life growing up and Nintendo and all kinds of other games, but I hadn't really played PC games, so I kind of had to lie a little. I remember when I called a friend back east who was like, tell me some PC games that I could tell them about. Little did I know they were about to release their first console game, so it was like, oh, you played console games?
(01:52):
And they're like, so yeah. And I started at the bottom floor I guess doing QA, which is a great place to start in the industry. But I didn't sort of let my dreams of why I moved to California die, and I took an internship, and I was working 90 hours a week at Lucas and this other place and I was learning all about basically the beginning of digital media and video, and started using the computers at Lucas. And next thing I knew I was working in the art department, I was really just using their Macs to practice Photoshop and the art director noticed it and was like, wait, you know Photoshop? But then I started to get more brave and propose ideas because I was just using these cutting edge tools. And I guess anyways, to fast forward, that theme has gone throughout my whole career because I'm always sort of tinkering with what's new and what's next.
(02:40):
And yeah to give you the quick version, worked on some amazing games at Lucas. Went on to sort of create the visual effects department there, and did some great games. And eventually it was a pretty big mass exodus of people that I was at the beginning of. But went on to do a startup with people from ILM because the visual effects department or company that Lucas owns or did. But I had worked with them a lot just because all these techniques we were doing and Skywalker ran, so did a startup with those guys for a couple years, it was more about tools and effects, and wanted to get back to games. I missed games after not being in it. So I moved back to the east coast, started my own companies, and over the years I've just done a mix of our own games but also done service work to survive with Hasbro and Spin Master and other things.
(03:33):
And we had a great run doing augmented reality, and we had Apples game of the day, and worked with Phil Tippett, but also worked with big companies like Niantic and others. And ultimately that disillusioned with mobile AR, at least the short term future of it. And we made a VR game a couple years ago for Sam and Max, which was a game I worked on the original way back at Lucas. So that was a lot of fun. But during that game, that's when I started getting obsessed with first NFTs, and then blockchain and blockchain games, and that's how we got here.
Brian Friel (04:09):
That's awesome. So you painted an awesome story there. I guess starting from the bottom at QA intern, rising up. And you've worked on titles that you didn't mention, but like Jedi Knight, the Force Within, Rebel Assault One and Two, so you've seen what it takes to make really successful video games. Coming into the Web 3.0 space, what have you noticed that's different? What is uniquely challenging about web 3.0?
Mike Levine (04:34):
We could talk for the next half hour just about this, but it's completely different, and it's completely the same. And I think that's what we're seeing now, is each company finding that balance of what is a web 3.0 game right now? You have some that are completely on chain and others that are completely off chain. And then there's things like us, which are in between which some people call Web 2.5 or whatever. But I think we're closer to 3.0 than 2.5. But I say as someone new coming into the space, which I was a year and a half ago at least, it's an overwhelming amount of stuff to learn. People say the rabbit hole for crypto and web 3.0 and blockchain. And as I've talked about here, we've gone down other tech rabbit holes in my career learning all about AR and everything related to it.
(05:23):
That was a pretty deep rabbit hole, but nothing compared to this, right? There's just so much more. And it took at least six months to just sort of get our bearings, get our sea legs basically, where it's like you start to figure out what's important, what's not important. And a big part of that at the beginning, because there was still so much lack of clarity, was making a good game. Making a fun game. We were in the minority I think on that in the beginning when everyone was kind of obsessed with play to earn and we're like, well let's make sure the game's fun. Because everything else kind of stems from that. Or you're really just going to have people there only to earn. And I'm not an Axie slammer, but that's kind of what we saw happen there, right?
Brian Friel (06:10):
Right, that makes sense.
Mike Levine (06:11):
So yeah, I mean there's massive differences, and I think it's really about finding your rudder and then once you do, just going for it basically. And there's just a lot of noise in this space. So it's constantly, is this call important? Should we partner with this company? How many partnerships can we do? Because we're still a relatively small company, you can spread yourself thin in this space. And then you have the whole Web 2.0 side of it, which maybe want to save that for another question if it comes up.
(06:41):
But yeah, just taking that on and trying to bring people over to web 3.0, it's easier when you're just in web 3.0 and these are already the converts, so we don't have to convince them. And I think there are other companies that are content to just sort of stay in this web 3.0 echo chamber right now. But I feel like the reason us and all these companies were able to get funding, the whole idea was games can bring more people into web 3.0. So if we only stay in with the converted, we're not really doing that justice. So that's kind of been our philosophy.
Brian Friel (07:15):
Trying to grow the pie. I totally resonate with that. So I think this might be a good time to talk a little bit about your project Planet Mojo. What is Planet Mojo in your own words?
Mike Levine (07:26):
Yeah, planet Mojo is an ecosystem of interconnected games built by us, Mystic Moose. That's the company. It is set in a mysterious alien planet, which we're going to keep revealing more about over time. We're really just the first chapter now, and we like to say it has an evolving narrative, just like the game has evolving seasons, eventually. Players compete with customized teams in our first game, Mojo Melee of fantastical creatures in a suite of eSport PVP games over time, because we plan to make more games soon.
(07:58):
The long-term goal is to create a sustainable growing catalog of games for the next generation of gamers. Empowering players by allowing them to own their in-game assets and have a say in the project's future direction/ which is a really simple way of saying we believe in decentralization and player ownership, digital property rights and all those fun things.
Brian Friel (08:20):
And so when you first had the idea to go into web 3.0, did you have this vision of what Planet Mojo would be, and was Planet Mojo the catalyst for this? Or was it more that you were interested in web 3.0, you wanted to tinker with new technologies, and Planet Mojo kind of arose out of that curiosity? Which way would you say that evolved?
Mike Levine (08:39):
It was a lot of things coming together. I mean first off, we love creating original IP. We've done that over the years. We created an indie game before the term existed, Colin Insecticide, I think part one is still on Steam and it was on the DS as well. And that was a complete fantasy, amazing fictional world that a lot of us worked on, a lot of friends from Lucas Arts. So creating original worlds and IP is not easy, but it's something we enjoy a lot. And we also just know from history sort of that whenever new platforms are born, new paradigms begin. That's usually when new IP is born, or has a chance to be born before the big licenses and IP. We've seen this over and over Whenever a new console launches. You see it with AxiE and things like this, that just IPS kind of rise. So it seemed like a great opportunity.
(09:40):
But yeah, I mean I guess before that we really had the specific idea, it was just the understanding what web 3.0 was, and we didn't even call it that then, right? Crypto games or game-fi or whatever we were calling it. But just understanding what that was going to mean to the players, to the developers, what it could do to gaming in general. People talk a lot about indie games and that's a big thing in games, but I'm here to break it to you, it's a bit of a fallacy. It's like there's thousands of indie games that don't really succeed, and then we have one or two that sort of propel, it's kind of being a rockstar when I grew up. It was like, good luck, right.
(10:20):
And that doesn't mean you can't do it, but the game is kind of rigged. There's usually outside funding involved, and publishers, and the platform fees. And so web 3.0 was a way to me also it's like wow, we can flip the script here and have more control as indies, and control of our own destiny, and it was like the evolution of community. We've seen community and gaming become a huge thing over the last decade. This is the natural evolution of community to me.
Brian Friel (10:52):
Yeah, that's very well put. So let's dive in a little more then. You've mentioned you paint this great picture here of players owning their assets, the decentralization aspect of it. How exactly does this work in Planet Mojo? So for reference, you guys just had this mint madness NFT moment on Magic Eden, you guys sold out in four seconds. I imagine these NFTs are used in game, is that correct?
Mike Levine (11:17):
Yeah, I mean first and foremost and we really have taken a, we're the tortoise not the hair approach to the blockchain, and we haven't launched our token, and we've always wanted to take a slow and steady approach to it.
(11:30):
So yeah, first and foremost, and we're literally still hooking this up right now. It's about to be done. But if you own the Champion NFTs, you will have them in the game. We're soon, we've kind of spoiled the players up to now by the way, because we've been in alpha, we haven't really worried about the game progression too much, and we've just kind of given everything to players to make tournaments more fun. But we're really only a few weeks away from being an open beta. And that's when we'll be taking everything away from everyone and resetting all stats, and then people will have to play to unlock champions and abilities, and spell stones, and different skins, and eventually arenas when we hook those up, because those could be NFTs as well, maybe. Intent.
(12:16):
So, yeah. When you own them you will automatically unlock them to use in teams and play within the game, and you won't have to worry about the progression, just like free to play. But the difference here of course is you truly own it. You can sell it if you want at any point on open markets or our marketplace when we launch it. And our whole thing is as we launch more games, you're going to get to use that character in our other games as well, only if you own it as a NFT.
Brian Friel (12:44):
And so this model it's kind of like a play to own model, which I've heard about. Is that a correct characterization?
Mike Levine (12:50):
Yes. I mean I love and hate acronyms I guess I'll just go on record of saying that. But we do kind of need them in a way. And I think I can certainly get behind that a lot more than anything with the term earn in it. Because that was just a bad idea. Free to own, I know Gabe really pushes that, but I always was just like, wait a minute. Let's not take play out of this. If we're really going to have an acronym debate now. The word play should be at the center of this. There's just not enough words. So that's why I like play to own.
Brian Friel (13:25):
I like that as well. So then talk to us a little bit about the economy of this game. You guys are building this world, you're going to be adding on a piece arenas over time, this thing's going to continually evolve. Players also own their own assets, but you made a point up front to be like, this isn't something where we're just advertising a quick way to make money in this game. How do you see the in-game economy here evolving over time?
Mike Levine (13:52):
Good question. And back to the last point related too, we do plan to add other features to owning the NFTs. And I didn't even mention by the way that we have what we call a, it's an in-game collection tier basically. And the very easy way to explain it is the more NFTs you own, the more chances for rewards and prizes you're going to get in the game. Because we sort of tally up, look at all of the NFTs you own, there's like a point system, and you'll sort of have a different tier, and then each month you'll get these collection tier points basically that you can put towards our premium quest, which if you didn't own them would take much, much longer to unlock, basically. So that's another thing. And we also want to eventually have some form of sort of holding slash staking with rewards as well.
(14:39):
And then moving to your question just about the economy. So right now we just have a soft currency in the game, it's called Ore, or you're going to earn it through the battles, it's going to help you rank up, level up. There's a whole free battle pass system that you get battle pass points for that unlock assets, champions, currency, all kinds of things. We're going to have a hard currency too. And by the way, just backing up, because I don't even think we really explained or, I jumped over this, my fault.
(15:09):
But so our game is Mojo Melee. It is a next generation strategy auto-chess battler. We've been nominated in a bunch of the web 3.0 award shows, which has been in great. The game's currently still in alpha, it's in the browser base game, so you can play it right in our web browser, and we are planning to take it to mobile very soon as well. So I just want to make sure we explain what the game was-
Brian Friel (15:34):
Cover those bases. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mike Levine (15:36):
And you can play, if anyone has played team fight tactics, that's kind of where these games really came from Dota 2, Underlords, but Teamfight Tactics has sort of become the most popular one. But making this for blockchain and why we say we feel it's like the next evolution of these games, even taking the web 3.0 part out of it, is all those games really came from PC downloadable. There are mobile versions, but TFT matches can take easily 30 minutes to play. And we wanted to make something that was faster paced. Even the browser version, when you play it, you'll notice it feels like a mobile game, that's because we designed it that way. So when you're playing it on mobile, the matches can take 5 to 10 minutes, you can play against one-on-one or eight other players at a time. It's like a round-robin tournament format, which is another one of the big reasons we chose the genre to start off with because we did take a lot of time debating what kind of game do we want to make first.
(16:33):
And we just thought this was a great way to introduce the world, the characters, and this is the other big thing we changed with these games is we're like, okay, players are going to own their characters. And normally these games up to now and it's very new genre, but you typically played with a shared deck. So players are playing against each other but they're pulling from the same deck. And what we did was kind of make it more like Hearthstone and other games and we kind of took that out of it, we made it more about collection and team building. Where you have just insane amount, every time we add a champion or a spell stone, which is another element we added, it just gives you insane combinations to try and strategy in terms of how you lay them out and use them.
Brian Friel (17:18):
The theory crafting because endless, yeah.
Mike Levine (17:20):
Yeah. So we sort of made a new paradigm sort of around that, and as we were making it, Supercell started testing their auto-chess game and they actually did something pretty similar so we were like okay, they're pretty smart, we must be onto something. So it just gave us confidence that we were on the right path.
Brian Friel (17:37):
That's good validation.
Mike Levine (17:39):
Yeah. Their game is way more casual. We kind of built something in between TFT and what they built. But yeah, web 3.0 with community we're always listening, and we've taken huge amounts of feedback. I mean we started privately play testing it last August, and so we've definitely listened to the community, we've added tons of features that people have asked for, and we may even add longer form matches eventually, enough people request them. But our sort of goal right now is to get into open beta and test like I was saying the progression and the retention, and all this awards and things like that in the game.
Brian Friel (18:20):
That's great. That's a big overview. Thank you for that. I guess I'm obligated to ask this question for all your fans who are listening, but when beta? Can you share anything about that?
Mike Levine (18:29):
I mean we're real close here. I would tell you within two weeks, but we have this little thing coming up called GDC and a bunch of our team is going there, so we may decide to wait till right after that, just till we're all back. So we're talking hopefully before March is over I'm fairly confident we'll get open beta, knock on wood.
Brian Friel (18:51):
Right on. So I guess switching gears a little bit, at the start of this conversation you talked about the idea of growing the pie and that right now web 3.0 is relatively to all the gaming industries that are out there, it's a small subset of user base. There's people who really resonate with it, but then the vast majority of gamers maybe don't care or don't see the value prop. But I'd say there's also, I've seen a little bit of blow back where anytime the term NFT is mentioned to traditional gamers, a lot of times it elicits this response where people immediately say, no, I don't want it, I don't like it.
Mike Levine (19:26):
It's a trigger word.
Brian Friel (19:27):
It has become a bit of a trigger word. Why do you think that's the case?
Mike Levine (19:31):
Oh, this is very simple actually. And first of all, we don't have NFTs in our game. We have digital collectibles.
Brian Friel (19:39):
Good marketing.
Mike Levine (19:40):
And I've seen a lot more people use this term, especially who are bringing it to the masses or trying to. But I was talking about this for many months ago, just that the web 3.0 gaming space needs to break free of the NFT space. And it hasn't yet. Because there are these rules, many of which are very silly in the NFT space. You've got to sell out, and in terms of pricing, and distribution, and quantity and just all the sort of FOMO around it, and not to mention all the scams and rug pulls and it's like, we've been on tons of calls in the beginning of this where meeting with very DeFi crypto groups on Telegram. And at the beginning we were just sort of surprised at all the questions, it was like, how do we know this isn't a scam and all this stuff?
(20:30):
And we're like, we've been doing this for over 20 years, this is what we do. We make games, we do what we say, but we get it. So I think that's, the mass public, first of all I think it's a myth actually that gamers hate this. I really do. They hate something else. It's all that stuff we were just talking about. And I think we hit the peak hate months ago. I think we've been getting much more people like yeah, I'm interested in this actually, and what's it all about? And I just know from firsthand experience, that's why every time now when I'm doing these spaces or whatever I'm trying to say, everyone on this call, we're in the bubble already. What you have to do is everyone go bring in one friend. Just go talk to your friends about this, because there's nothing more powerful to this day in any media than word of mouth.
(21:23):
I just saw a chart on this, and it's like over 50% the most powerful form of user acquisition. And I just know from firsthand experience, when I talk to gamers young and old, what are you doing now? I'm making a web 3.0 game. What's that? Crypto. And then I say, well, have you ever thought about owning your assets and what that means? And then literally their eyes open up. What are you talking about? Because they're like gamers, they stream, they're watching Fortnite and playing Call of Duty, like wait a minute, that skin that I paid so much for, I could sell it? Yeah. Ooh, tell me more. So this has to be a grassroots campaign really to win over people. See, this is the big difference here is that people like to compare this to free to play, and it's not the greatest analogy. Because free to play had one thing, I don't know if I should say over us, but it was the main point of it.
(22:25):
It was free. Right in the title. And to the average consumer, to Joe 6-pack, whatever, they don't care about decentralization and blockchain and immutable and any of that stuff. They want to know is this a good deal for me? What's in it for me? And if we just explain to them, yes, you can own it, there's value in it, you can make it better by playing, and when our new games come out, you're going to be able to use it. Maybe you can use it in other games. It's really a lot of value. It just has to be explained to players.
Brian Friel (23:03):
Well put. I guess on that thread then, are there any traditional games that you think should be adding like a web 3.0 component in the short term that you think would be in that benefit?
Mike Levine (23:16):
No, none.
Brian Friel (23:18):
Interesting. You want to expand on that?
Mike Levine (23:19):
I want them to pay out and be ignorant and let us dominate. Usually happens in others game cycles and then they come in and want to acquire companies like us or have to play catch up. I mean Disney, other companies, they're still playing catch up on mobile and things like that.
(23:39):
So look, I can't control what they're going to do. And we're already seeing from Asia, being in North America and Europe, I think we're heavily biased by the sentiment in Asia. From every people I talk to over there, which is a lot and Reid, the sentiment's almost the opposite. They're bullish. So you're seeing, look at Oasis and all the companies that they've brought in from that side of the world. I don't have to even sit here and say what companies should add it because it's happening. Those companies are doing it. Will the big companies from North America and Europe? We'll see. Let's put it this way. If they see those companies making money, you can bet. But there's the legality and all that involved too. And that's where startups can afford to be nimble and take risks. So I don't have a crystal ball, but I know it's going to be an interesting year.
Brian Friel (24:33):
Yeah. Well I know you said you don't have a crystal ball. But I want to know, blockchain is young, especially in the gaming space in particular, everyone's I think still figuring out what the right kind of primordial soup of ideas and gaming talent, trying new things. Where do you think the space goes from here? In the next year or two, how do you think the space unfolds?
Mike Levine (24:55):
I mean, there are a lot of roadblocks for games right now in this space. On the mobile side we have Apple with their guidelines, which is depending on who you talk to a step forward or also very restrictive, or sometimes a deal breaker as we've seen with other companies. And on the PC side, again, we're sort of limited. Epic will allow games. So in some ways this space is back to the 1990s and 2000s where everyone has their own website and come here and make your own account and connect your wallet. But yesterday, the Amazon rumor was in the press again, right, about their marketplace. And you're seeing big Web 2.0 players get into the space. So if I'm going to make wild predictions or my hopes even, is that those are the companies that kind of need to help bring in the masses, and hopefully some of those barriers will come down, or the smart ones will realize the opportunity, the GameStops, who already jumped into it.
(26:05):
And I think those people who have those relationships already, and a lot of those companies like overseas and Japan, China, et cetera where they're so bullish on it, it seems like it's an even easier path. But I think those gateways will sort of lead the way. And of course just more and better games finally coming out. So the public can see, oh wait, there are some cool, actual games here in the web 3.0 space. And I always make the analogy about this space, and I think I've even realized it's bigger than I was making it, because I think it pertains to anything like pro sports, whatever, but I usually make it with gaming. Is that there are ways to earn in Web 2.0 games today. You can go to tournaments, Magic the Gathering, card game, and you can make millions of dollars and travel around there.
(26:56):
But that only applies to a certain percentage of people in gaming. You think about eSports and all this, right? There's like three spheres to this really that intersect, that help all drive each other. There's the professional level, then there's the spectators, the fans, the people who really pay attention, who are watching. And then there's the mass audience who just plays the game. And that's why I'm saying that it's no different than golf. The people who watch golf or NBA like, oh, I want to wear the shoes he's wearing, and I want to get the shirt he wears. Or like my son, I want to get Jason Tatum's high school jersey. I'm like, are you kidding me? And you're going to see that same parallels here. And it's just like in web 3.0, the earning part is going to appeal to some people. And it should be there and all the web 3.0 aspects, but you have to have those three layers.
(27:55):
That's why we think we made a PVP game and eSports are important to this. That's why we did a tournament, and worked with a lot of creators. And that's really important here kind of to take it to the masses, and let everyone kind of choose at what level they want to go down their own rabbit hole. Do I want a wallet? Do I want to own these NFTs? And the idea is going to start to snowball. And the early adopters are going to be like yeah, I want to own these things. And then other people are like, why are they owning them? I should probably own them too. I'm putting all this time in here, maybe I should actually own my assets. And yeah, that's where I think it's going to go. That's my optimistic feel. I ended more optimistic than I started.
Brian Friel (28:36):
That's great. That's a good way to do it. And also on the word of mouth part as well, which you said, the most powerful force of growing, word of mouth.
Mike Levine (28:44):
Totally.
Brian Friel (28:45):
Mike, this has been awesome. I guess on this last topic of getting more games into the space, we always end our podcast with a similar question. I want to ask this for you. Who is a builder in the web 3.0 gaming ecosystem that you admire?
Mike Levine (28:59):
Oh boy. It's easier for me to name projects because we're big fans of multiple people at these projects. So like Trap Knoll, we're very good friends with, and Undead Blocks and Phantom Galaxies, and I mean, I know I'm going to forget people I feel like. I mean, BoomLand were really supportive to us because they did their mint before us. And just Magic Eden, the people there, Matt, Knock, Liz, and Polygon. The people at Polygon are building too, I think. So probably named more than you wanted. But yeah, there's so many projects.
Brian Friel (29:40):
The more the merrier.
Mike Levine (29:41):
Yeah, I mean we're always looking at other projects. At the beginning we were always just, whoa, what are those guys doing? And then you get to the point where it's like, well, maybe they don't know any more than we do. So that's where everyone starts, the creativity comes from. You start seeing cool ideas.
Brian Friel (29:58):
That's awesome. Well, you named a lot of folks there. I guess all potential upcoming podcast guests, we'll have to reach out to them as well. Well Mike, this is a really fantastic discussion. Thanks for sharing a bit about your history and your journey from Lucas all the way to now pioneering web 3.0 gaming. Where can people go more to learn about Planet Mojo and Mojo Melee?
Mike Levine (30:18):
Easiest is this go to planetmojo.io, and then there are links right on the top right to our Discord, that's really where all the action is. Please join our Discord, Twitter, and there's a link to the game. You can play the game right now in alpha. We're actually hoping to push an update up today. Well, I guess my, it'll be last week when this comes out. But that's a play.planetmojo.io.
Brian Friel (30:41):
Awesome. Mike Levine, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Mike Levine (30:44):
Thanks for having me.